Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)

[Hobusu]

If this would help, why should it replace Charged Shot instead of Knee Bash?

[ClanNatioy]

The arrow is so large that you can’t block or jump over it. But it takes awhile to charge up that you can walk up and throw them. Charging up to power level 9000 and all that.

Or you could just do what MJ said and rename it.

[ClanNatioy]

Because It would be nice if Jaina had more blocks.

[vengefulpickle]

I mean, “Charged Shot cannot be blocked or dodged” is pretty parsimonious, word-wise. Leaving it as an attack would mean that it would beat faster throws (not sure if that’s a good thing), and win ties with equally sped throws (again, not sure if it’s a good thing). I’m not sure if there’s anything else that hinges on the attack/throwness of the move.

EDIT: I guess the grapplers would be pretty unhappy about that, actually.

[mysticjuicer]

Assuming he’s interested in sharing them, I would be very interested in @JonnyD sharing his thoughts on Jaina as a character as a whole and her easiest/toughest MUs. If he has specific changes he think would be helpful to the character, that would be rad too.

[mysticjuicer]

It would be helpful in general if the people in this thread with significant experience playing Jaina could do the MU discussion piece, because that would help focus people’s attention/suggestions on what elements of her kit could be tweaked to cover the holes without giving her an accidental 9-1 somewhere.

[thehug0naut]

Since it’s on topic, this is @jonnyd’s big jaina post from a while ago (more than 650 posts since!)

Back then we had both suggested very similar things were wrong with Jaina and wanted very similar solutions (fast J to 2.4 speed, slow J slightly stronger and KD but slower, Knee Bash to 3CP starter, Q to 0.0 speed, innate to 2HP/rebuy for non-Q/A). I’m still of the mind that these changes would help her while keeping her mostly the same.

a huge post, be prepared

@JonnyD

Jaina is the character I’ve spent the most time with and is also my worst character.

Jaina’s problems to me are :

A. Block/Throw Distribution.

Unlike most characters with 4 blocks (Zane, Setsuki, Gwen, etc?) All of Jaina’s Blocks are her throws. So losing a block or throw can lead to a lot of awkward hands where you can’t do X Option. While Theoretically Jaina likes to “beat” Blocks with either a huge Normal (5/6) or a J when you think about it, it doesn’t at all. She nets 2 damage on a 6 (+ a card) attack or 4 with a J using her buyback. (Recently I just stopped buying back Js I use early game, but yeah.)

Another idea I think people brought up to solve this would to make her dodges better early game like a more efficient J. (Jaina has great dodges late game though!) I feel like if J were more efficient or had a knockdown effect it would definitely need to be slower so it becomes less “dumb” in Grappler matchups.

Proposed solution:

More efficient slow J with knockdown, but slower to compensate. Chip damage also a bit stronger on it giving Jaina an early game dodge follow up and to make her early game anti-blocks a bit better.

I also don’t understand why Flame Arrow is 2.6 speed. Having it at 2.4 and allowing it to trade might give it some more usage in neutral without destroying favorable matchups. Add some slight more efficiency and it might help a bit more. (@thehug0naut)

J Charged Shot (9.6 Speed Attack, Can’t Combo) 10 (10) Knockdown.

J Flame Arrow (2.4 Speed Attack, 1 CP Ender) 7 (5)

I also feel giving Jaina’s Knee Bash to be a 3 CP starter gives her another Early Game throw she’s willing to use. I originally proposed that or a 6.6 Speed throw, but that’d make her late game probably a bit too powerful.

6 Knee Bash (8.6 Speed Throw, 3 CP Starter) 7+4+4

B. Card efficiency/Innate problems/Vulnerability to Jokers.

A lot of her cards aren’t efficient with the buyback cost. I think either 90 HP or changing her innate to 2 buyback and 4 Q/A buyback. Her effective HP is likely the worst or 2nd worst in the game next to Gwen.

An idea I had was to help her late game a bit more buy allowing her to buyback attacks on non-attack reveals like Dodges/Throws. This would allow her to threaten those two options a bit more.

Also I remember people saying to allow her to access her “danger state earlier”

Proposed solution:

Change her innate to increase her efficiency. Also allow her to access her danger state earlier. Allow buyback of all attacks in danger state no matter the reveal.

Burning Vigor:

At the end of combat if you attacked, you may return any of your combo cards to your hand other than Queens or Aces. Take 2 damage for each card returned this way.

Burning Desperation:

If you have 40 or less life, you may also return Queens and Aces and take 4 damage for each. You can now return attacks no matter the combat reveal.

C. Speeds close to important, but not important enough.

Jaina’s worst matchups are Geiger, Argagarg, Setsuki and Menelker likely in that order.

Geiger is a huge problem just because of his speeds and favorable trades. He also doesn’t mind blocking Jaina’s big normals/Js.

Argagarg is pretty obvious. He trades more favorable at 2.4 than Jaina. His AA is also 0.2. Bubble Shield is a huge problem due to Jaina’s Block/Throw distribution and reliance on Attacking Blocks to “punish” them.

Setsuki is a problem just because of Block/Throw distribution and a 0.0 Speed Starter that can easily recur. She also has easy access to Jokers so a Jaina combat win is very risky at times. (please don’t let her bring back 7s with 7s in v3.)

Menelker can banish her 10s, and has a 2.2 Starter that leads to 44 damage. Also his Q is faster than everything she does.

My solution is just give her Q 0.0 Speed and slightly more efficient. (Why is her Q less damaging than Valeries!) This allows her to beat Geiger K, Args AA, and trade favorably with Setsuki Q. Jaina might beat/close to even Setsuki now with this buff/other buffs, but Geiger/Arg are still likely unfavorable, but less unfavorable than before with her other buffs. (Arg moreso since if Jaina can buyback off dodge against a character that likes Attack/Blodge late game.) Menelker I just accept as a better Jaina.

Q Dragonheart (0.0 Speed Attack, 3 CP Ender) 9+5 (1)

D. Random other changes.

7 Draws on use to increase her draw power. Or just change her 7s.

About all I got besides ridiculous other dream changes like making a Yomi Koryu/Rainbow Edition.

[mysticjuicer]

Awesome! It had indeed been so many posts ago that I forgot it happened. XD Sweet.

[mysticjuicer]

One thing that’s missing is a list of match-ups she’s advantaged in, if she has any, and why. Could you take a shot at a short set of paragraphs?

[ArthurWynne]

A very good post. I don’t think Charged Shot should KD, and I think giving her 90 HP is safer than reducing Burning Vigor to 2 damage/card (but that might still turn out to be a good idea.)

I also like that her Q isn’t 0.0 speed, to be honest, particularly since she has both Q and single A as reversal options. I’ve come to agree that it should deal more damage though. 9+6 maybe?

Changing her 7s one way or another seems to be gaining popularity.

To summarize – if we’re going back to less drastic, more incremental changes to Jaina, here are the ones I favor:

• Increase HP to 90, Burning Desperation from 40. Maybe reduce Burning Vigor damage to 2.
• Knee Bash becomes a 3 CP starter.
• Move 7* to 9* (if she’s pinched on throws and blocks, let’s make sure she can use her good ones.)
• Nudge up the stats on J and Q as follows.
  J: Charged Shot 4.8 speed, 2 CP Starter, 9(8) damage.
  Flame Arrow 2.4 speed, 1 CP Ender, 7(6) damage.

(I don’t think Charged Shot should knock down, but I think it should clash with grappler 4 attacks. That’s also twice the speed of Flame Arrow which is good flavor. Conversely I think Flame Arrow should be a proper fireball. I don’t like Flame Trap as an ability, that’s Grave’s trick.)

Q: Dragonheart 0.2 speed, +Any, 3 CP Ender, 9+6 (2) damage.

I would be willing to talk about making her 6 an A/B, rewriting 7* etc. but if we’re going to be conservative, I think the best way is to run with what she already has and just tune it a little higher.

[Zqxx]

Is there a reason we haven’t considered just making Jaina’s K 2.2 speed? That alone would improve her match up against Geiger, Arg, and Setsuki, which @JonnyD says are 3 of her worst MUs.

[ArthurWynne]

Mostly just caution I think. Recurring a 2.2 combo starter has the potential to be really oppressive against a lot of the cast.

[thehug0naut]

I’ll try at least, though she doesn’t have a lot of advantaged match-ups. The ones I think she does well in are the ones where she can use her normals in neutral and where her A stops the opponent doing what they need to do:

I think she has a good time vs Quince. She obviously outclasses him in attack speeds, she has an additional throw faster than K spin compared to a lot of characters, and if she’s standing she has 7* to guarantee breaking his vortex.

Valerie really hates Jaina’s Q/A DP barrage. Probably more than any other character Jaina can consistently deny Val her 1.0 speed normal starters and aces.

Jaina can also abuse Q/A here to keep Gwen on the back foot. Gwen is the only character with potentially less life than Jaina so the advantage is definitely on Jaina’s side.

Jaina’s A can put a lot of work in denying Rock Armor, and J/5 are particularly brual at chipping away while periodically letting her combo if she catches a throw. Rook really needs to play hunker down and play Block/Special Block/AA/AAAA, hoping Jaina doesn’t undercut his AA with Q/AA.

I might be tempted to add to the list, because she can play her 2 and 3 in neutral and can option select his dK/dQ mixup. I suspect he has a lot more counter play than I’ve typically seen though, providing he plays for 10* and FDP mixups. Not played this one enough to be certain.

Interestingly is not on my list. Yes Jaina has the advantage vs normals heavy BBB, but his A and AA are super strong Vs Jaina and her low HP. I think it’s fairly close to even just on account of those options.

[thehug0naut]

@Zqxx

Is there a reason we haven’t considered just making Jaina’s K 2.2 speed?

Probably to stop her kerb stomping tbh. Giving Jaina all game access to a 2.2 speed attack would make her better at fast pokes than the poking character.

[ClanNatioy]

@thehug0naut

Interestingly is not on my list.

I’ve said this before but I think this mu is too close to even. It ends in draws like 30-40% of the time, lol.

[ArthurWynne]

Which is a pity, because if Flame Arrow could in good conscience be a 2.2 speed attack that would be a very elegant way to get a fireball spam character, in a way that’s notably different from Lightning Trap.

[thehug0naut]

Because of vendetta, the best we could do with her existing innate would be to make it 2.4 speed and then give it an ability where it beats all other 2.4 speed attacks. Since 2.4 is fireball speed we would be making it the best “fireball”, but its kind of clunky and I don’t know that it really helps her that much. Certainly not against Zane or setsuki.

[ArthurWynne]

Yeah, I don’t think that would work.

[mysticjuicer]

@ArthurWynne

I don’t think Charged Shot should knock down, but I think it should clash with grappler 4 attacks.

I don’t think a sane grappler plays a 4 attack against Jaina no matter what speed it is, so long as she has the ability to buy back her attacks. Getting blown up by a fast normal or K is just too risky. Gameplan remains block and reversal until super, then try to dodge into super (or play special blocks, for Rook).

[ArthurWynne]

I am the guy who once played 8 attack on wakeup in the Troq mirror, so maybe I shouldn’t be talking about grappler valuation…